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March 10, 2005
H.E. Jennifer Mary Shipley, Former Prime Minister of New Zealand and Club de Madrid Member
- Federal Republic of Germany, H.E. Vice Chancellor Joschka Fischer
- Argentine Republic, H.E. Minister of Foreign Affairs Rafael Bielsa
- Republic of Slovakia, H.E. Minister of Justice Daniel Lipsic
- Spain, H.E. Minister of Interior José Antonio Alonso Suárez
- Republic of Georgia, H.E Special Representative for Abkhazia Irakli Alasania
- Republic of Hungary, H.E. Minister of Interior Monika Lamperth
- League of Arab States, H.E. Secretary-General Amre Moussa
- World Tourism Organisation, H.E. Secretary-General Francesco Frangialli
- Republic of Panama, H.E. Former President Arístides Royo
- Republic of Turkey, H.E. Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan
Complete audio of the conference
- UN High Level Panel Report
- Audio Archive (English) [51m., 12 MB, MP3]
Transcription / Transcripción
Note: […] Means not audible or missing content from the original tapes because of the recording
Nota: […] Significa no audible o que falta contenido en la cinta original debido a la grabación
Moderator. Jennifer Mary Shipley
Many of you will be aware that the Club of Madrid felt that the former leaders were in a unique position to convene this important forum. We are extremely honored this afternoon that many distinguished leaders; current leaders from around the world have chosen to come to Madrid and be part of this important forum where we’re considering the issues […] of security and democracy.
For those of you who have been with us over the last two or three days, you will be aware that there has been very many distinguished academics who have taken the opportunity to share their experience and scholarly background in bringing forward many new concepts that can help move us forward. But in the end the duty of judgment lies with current leaders. And so while this forum can share the experience of former leaders, the experience of academics and other distinguished people, our recommendations that will be part of the Madrid Agenda tomorrow finally rest in the hands of the decision-makers of today and the decision makers of the future as we address these complex questions. Not only the political process but also the media and others who have a chance to influence public opinion and lead, we hope will take interest in the agenda that is announced tomorrow.
But this evening we have the opportunity to invite some of the distinguished leaders from different economies who are here with us to make a brief presentation. […] By the way, many of our speakers, our panelists have prepared thorough papers and the Club of Madrid will ensure that each of these papers is published on the website. And so you will have access to any of the full documents that may have been prepared to give a full view from any one of the particular economies.
I have asked the leaders present to take 4 or 5 minutes to pull out the key point that they think can make a difference as we come up with strategies that will allow us to develop a vision as to how the international community can cooperate in order to confront this threat of terrorism and to promote democracy. Our panel this afternoon is to begin with His Excellency the Vice-Chancellor Fischer from the Federal Republic of Germany, a distinguished politician in his own right and a gentleman with vast experience: Vice-Chancellor, I ask you to take the floor.
Vice Chancellor Fischer
Thank you very much. Ladies and gentlemen, let me start with a basic principle: terrorism is at no time and in no case justifiable. When we talk about terrorism here today in Madrid one year after the terrible crimes our sympathy and solidarity is with the victims, their families and the Spanish people. Terrorism, with its totalitarian ideology, is a threat for the world community. If we want to defeat this menace, we must be firm in our determination and take appropriate action in any given situation.
This leads to several fundamental conclusions. Firstly, we need a comprehensive and long term approach to preventing and fighting terrorism. Initially, our strategy must focus in calling the terrorists to account for their cruel and horrific crimes. We must catch them, bring them to trial and severely punish them. These essential repressive elements need to be accompanied by preventive ones. We must try to combat the factors which encourage terrorism. Therefore we must actively seek to resolve social, political and economic conflicts throughout the world. Especially in developing countries, we need to do more for economic development, education and democratization. This includes full commitment to protecting and implementing human rights. In the long run, the promotion of human rights, democracy and the rule of law will provide the most reliable foundation for peace and stability.
Secondly, it is crucial that we act together. No state can master this challenge on its own. It can only provide the necessary complex responses through multilateral action. Terrorists act globally. Prevention in the fight against terrorism should therefore be carried out at a global level.
The United Nations is a key player in the international fight against terrorism. Wherever possible special attention should be paid to broadening and deepening the basis under international law for cooperation in combating terrorism. It has therefore long been our central aim to ensure that all states ratify and implement all U.N. counter-terrorism conventions unconditionally. In this connection is it also more urgent than ever that agreement is reached on a common definition of terrorism, and that a comprehensive U.N. counter-terrorism convention is adopted on this basis, as the U.N. Secretary General has lined out in his marvelous speech today.
We in Europe know that our security in the 21st century will be decided in the Mediterranean and in the Middle East, in the regions where serious barriers to modernization restrict people’s future prospects. I think one of the most challenging documents is the UNDP report about the Middle East which was produced by scientists, businessmen and experts from the region. And made quite clear what the real problems in these regions are and what we have to do together. Together – and this is very important - with the countries in this region we have to work as partners to overcome these barriers to modernization: to close the development gap and open the way for democracy and rule of law. Hence the importance of the broader Middle East initiative launched in the G8. However this initiative will only work if it aims for real partnership. And this is important, I will repeat it: real partnership, not imposed from outside - if we take the countries and the regions seriously and if we manage to reach a strategic consensus together. If we succeed we can mobilize the economic and cultural potential of North Africa and the Middle East, and we’ll have taken a giant step forward in the security question.
For us in Europe there is another issue of central importance. Many events during the last few years have shown, and the horrific attack in Madrid is a sad example of this, that we must take a closer look at our own countries and societies. Further intensification of EU cooperation is vital, not least through continued development of our joint institutions. In addition to this, however, we should take decisive steps to stop activities in our countries aimed at inciting terrorism and recruiting future terrorists and their backers. A firm commitment to tolerance and to the fundamental values of an open society is therefore absolutely essential, as is our struggle against the threats of intolerance, racism and anti-Semitism. And it is just as important that we do everything we can to redress the circumstances, which foster such activities, also through better integration of minorities and migrants.
However, let me mention another aspect at this point. In all societies the fight against terrorism generally raises the question of how to strike the right balance between freedom and security. How can we insure the best possible security without restricting the freedom and rights of each individual? Even if the concrete questions in these connections are often not easy to answer, in principle our response must be that freedom and security must both be guaranteed. We will only succeed if measures to combat terrorism are in keeping with human rights principles - not without, and certainly not against them. And let me add it would be the most important and the most bitter victory of terrorism if we would give in to our basic principles of a human society and the rule of law and human rights.
Ladies and Gentlemen: we will have to deal with the problem of terrorism for years to come. However, we have a real chance of containing terrorism if we face these problems without ideological blinkers and with a keen awareness of our own failings and weaknesses, if we resist the temptation to look for easy answers and quick solutions and if we resolutely pursue a policy of international cooperation. We must not diminish our efforts. We owe that to those who died in Madrid.
Moderator. Jennifer Mary Shipley
Thank you, thank you vice-chancellor. Can I ask, is Minister Bielsa here from Argentina?
He is not. It’s now my privilege then to welcome, His Excellency the Minister of Justice, Minister Lipsic, from the Republic of Slovakia, to address us this afternoon?
The global nature of the terrorist threat requires total cohesion and solidarity within the international community. The scourge of terrorism continues to spread throughout the world assuming more terrible and murderous forms. The Slovak Republic considers terrorist attacks and their barbaric methods as threats against the values of freedom, democracy, justice, the rule of law, and human rights, especially the basic right, the right to life. And that is why we support elections regarding the fight against terrorism introduced by various international fora, including this one.
Terrorist attacks are targeted on the civilian population bearing the values of freedom and democracy. If freedom is considered to be a sister of democracy then the terrorism is brother of subjection. That is why we, together with the Spanish people, pray for victims of the terrorist attack, the sad anniversary of which we are commemorating these days. The condition of a successful strategy of the fight against terrorism is to exceed the framework of national frontiers, toward not only international, but truly trans-national cooperation since terrorism knows no borders and has a trans-national nature. The anti-terrorist combat requires in particular the perfect and faultless domestic anti-terrorist legislation and the effective system of international instruments aimed at the fight against terrorism which should ensure the prevention and elimination of sources of terrorism, especially financial means to which terrorists finance their activities. It should also create a functioning of the effective anti-terrorist structures and mechanisms of sanctions and also a universal cross-border cooperation of all law enforcement agencies: police, prosecution and of course all democratic states.
At the same time, as was repeated today for several times, it is important to take into account the principle that the fight against terrorism must be compatible with fundamental freedoms and human rights that form the basic values of our civilization. We must not forget that they are those values of our civilization against which the terrorist attacks are aimed at. Yet, while bearing in mind the constitutional rights that terrorist suspects have, we should not lose sight of the rights of the victims of terrorist attacks. Offenders usually have their lawyers who take care of their constitutional rights. But often times there is nobody to take care of the rights of the victims, many of whom, especially in cases of terrorist acts, are not among us anymore. It is therefore our duty to safekeeping the life and liberty of law-abiding citizens.
Slovakia is a party to all twelve universal and anti-terrorist international treaties and we have implemented the obligations resulting from these international treaties to our internal legal system. We firmly and undoubtedly support the anti-terrorist coalition of states – the presence of Slovak soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq is also the evidence of it. Just a couple of weeks ago, we have hosted a U.S.-Russian summit which confirmed the accession of the Russian Federation as a very important partner to the anti-terrorist coalition and the possibility of cooperation in this respect. Let me conclude by saying we consider unacceptable the fact that terrorism would be in a position to influence the democrative choices established by the democrative development throughout decades and centuries.
Moderator. Jennifer Mary Shipley
Thank you, minister. Can I also inquire please as to whether His Excellency the Minister for the Interior from Spain is in the audience? We were expecting him also.
He is not. It’s therefore my privilege to invite the Special Representative from the Republic of Georgia to address us this afternoon.
Thank you, chairman. Ladies and gentlemen, I would like to bring the Georgian perspective to the conference that we’re all attending here. Up to the recent developments in our region, especially I’m talking about the expansion of democracy in post-Soviet region, like democratic revolutions in Georgia, and now in Ukraine. We’re trying to find new ways to cooperate with our partners in counter-terrorism effort.
Georgia has been always a part of the fight against the global terrorism. We have contributed our troops and our efforts to the various parts of the conflict resolution and stabilization programs around the world. But now we are facing with the heritage in Georgia up to the revolution that we are dealing with two conflicts that we have in Georgia […] and as we all know the radical separatism generates good environment for the violence and the terrorism. So therefore we are dedicated with our partners in the international community to jointly fight against the terror and violence.
But mainly I would like to emphasize here on the work that can be done by the security apparatus and the intelligence officers. We have to trust each other and our country services have to trust each other to share the intelligence that we all have as a nation. Without sharing the information, the knowledge will not be spread to our partners and the measures that we can take later will be too late to prevent the tragedies like what happened in Madrid last year.
I would like to also touch upon the essence of the fight against terrorism. As Secretary General Kofi Annan mentioned, quite wisely, we cannot promote the fight against terrorism but forget about the fundamental human rights that are the driving forces of a democratic society. And I would like to say that although the new democracies, as Georgia, Ukraine and others in Eastern Europe, are whole-heartedly committed to fight terrorism, we cannot respond to the fight against terrorism which characterized the heavy-handed approach to this issue. I would like to say that nothing takes us farther away to our joint goal as the heavy handed approach that we are seeing it as is happening in Chechnya for example. These are issues that should not escape the attention of the international community. And this is something that we all should remember; that if we are fighting against terrorism, if we are promoting freedom and democracy we should stay engaged with all the sides involved in conflicts and the violence.
I would like to mention the peace initiatives that were brought about by the new government in Georgia. When we finally realized at the 12th year of the conflict of Abkhazia brought us nowhere because we were treating the conflict as a separate issue apart of the joint efforts to promote human values and democracy. So now as it was declared by our President at the U.N. Summit that we are coming up with a peace initiative which will envisage and reinvigorate the approach of Georgia to the peace and the commitment to the freedom of speech and the fundamental freedom of human rights. I would like to thank the conference; I would like to thank the panel members for their approach to this issue and to their understanding.
Moderator. Jennifer Mary Shipley
Thank you very much for that contribution. It is sobering to have commentary from an economy that on a daily basis confronts the complexity of these issues.
It’s now my great pleasure to introduce to you Her Excellency the Minister of the Interior, Monika Lamperth, from the Republic of Hungary
Thank you, dear chairwoman. Ladies and gentlemen, first of all I would like to express the Hungarian people’s sympathies with the Spanish people and with the families of the victims of the 3/11 attacks. After the terrorist attacks in Madrid, members of the European Union had to face the facts that the danger of international terrorism had reached the continent. Countering it, therefore, is in the interest not only the European Union, but every Member State, and every European citizen, and every people over the world. The common understanding lead to the declaration of the European Council and the reviewed action plan of the European Union.
The competition of the democratic state and the membership in new allied structures has had a huge effect on Hungary’s security situation. Along with the opening of the borders, organized crime has infiltrated inside the country and eventually terrorist organizations with international links may follow. Hungary has not experienced politically motivated terrorist attacks, at least within the last ten years, and is generally not considered to be a prime target for international terrorists. Still, keeping the Hungarian contributions in Afghanistan and Iraq in mind, we cannot look away from such events worldwide. The structure and operations of our national counter-terrorism authorities have had to be reformed according to these new challenges.
Hungary has already established the institutional and legal frameworks enabling us to take an active role in the European Union’s co operational mechanism and to make common efforts with other Member States in this field. Let us not fool ourselves by restraining our thinking to national borders or to competencies of national institutions only. The need for a common international executive policy in line with our […] European region without borders is imminent.
Thank you very much for your attention. [...]
Moderator. Jennifer Mary Shipley
Thank you, minister. We now have the pleasure of hearing from His Excellency, the Former President Royo, from the Republic of Panama.
Thank you. As I explained to the moderator, I am going to use the Spanish language. Mainly because I am from a Latin American country and secondly because we are in Cervantes land.
En esta cumbre internacional sobre Democracia, terrorismo y seguridad que tiene lugar en Madrid, donde hace un año se produjo el infausto atentado que causó 192 muertes de 17 nacionalidades, varias de estas de tierras americanas, el Gobierno de la República de Panamá que preside Martín Torrijos, se honra en participar.
Ningún país, aunque no sea objeto directo de ataque de terroristas se salva de este mal, porque son actos contra la humanidad entera, en nuestro territorio [...]
[...] familias enteras que se desplazan del país hermano vecino Colombia en busca de la paz y la seguridad que allí no encuentran, debido al narcoterrorismo. Panamá contribuye de diversas maneras a la lucha contra el terrorismo. Ha firmado y ratificado los textos y convenciones que regulan esta materia, ha puesto en práctica eficaces medidas para impedir que se utilice criminalmente su sistema financiero y ha condenado y condenará todos los actos terroristas. Creemos que el terrorismo debe ser contrarrestado, prevenido y perseguido, donde quiera que se produzca. Mediante una mayor cooperación entre los Estados, tal como señalaba el expresidente del gobierno español Felipe González, es preciso que los servicios de inteligencia de los distintos países, se tengan mas confianza entre sí y puedan intercambiar valiosa información.
Panamá, país donde por la constitución se prohibe el ejército, ha sido siempre una nación enemiga de las armas. Vemos con gran preocupación como ha proliferado en el mundo el uso y el comercio clandestino de estos instrumentos de muerte que facilitan la comisión de actos terroristas.
Somos una nación con un canal que presta servicio al comercio mundial, con un centro financiero internacional y una marina mercante de primer orden. Aún antes de la creación del Comité Interamericano contra el Terrorismo, CISTE, Panamá creó mecanismos para controlar las actividades de apoyo al terrorismo y se aplica el código de protección de buques e instalaciones portuarias, vigilancia esta que se aplica también al canal y se extenderá a los contenedores.
Nos preocupa el financiamiento del terrorismo y para evitarlo contamos con la unidad de análisis financieros, que como su nombre indica previene la ejecución de actividades de esta naturaleza, relacionadas con el terrorismo.
Panamá como país democrático se adhiere al sentimiento común de que la lucha contra el terrorismo debe hacerse sin alteración de la institucionalidad democrática, con respeto a los derechos humanos, a las normas del derecho internacional y a los objetivos y principios de las Naciones Unidas. En este sentido estaremos siempre dispuestos a cooperar con la comunidad internacional y con cualquier otro estado en la lucha contra el terrorismo. Ha sido preocupación de esta cumbre, formidablemente organizada y en buena hora por el Club de Madrid al que felicitamos calurosamente, la definición jurídico-política del terrorismo. No obstante debe preocuparnos también su objetivo. El escritor Dan Brown se refiere al tema en su novela “Ángeles y Demonios” al expresar que el objetivo del terrorismo es crear terror y temor. El miedo mina la fe en el orden establecido, debilita al enemigo desde dentro, provoca inquietud en las masas, el terrorismo no es una expresión de rabia, el terrorismo es un arma política, si destruyen la fachada de infalibilidad de un gobierno, destruyen la fe de su pueblo.
Estamos convencidos de que con motivo de esta cumbre, crecerá mundialmente la esperanza de eliminar algún día el terrorismo y se incrementara la confianza en la democracia y en la seguridad como los instrumentos más útiles para derrotarlo. Muchas Gracias
Moderator. Jennifer Mary Shipley
Thank you your Excellency. Can I just check whether we have His Excellency the Secretary General Moussa from the Arab League in the audience?
Therefore, it’s my pleasure to introduce our final speaker from the panel, His Excellency the Minister of the Interior, Minister Aksu from the Republic of Turkey.
[Non-English intervention, no transcription available]
Moderator. Jennifer Mary Shipley
Thank you, Minister for that excellent presentation. We have a few moments before we are required to wind up at six o’clock, and I thought I would take the opportunity to challenge the panelists, that if they were the Club members drafting the agenda tomorrow, is there a single priority, from your country’s perspective, that you would want to see reflected in that Madrid agenda? The Madrid agenda is going to have to pull down so much of what has been discussed over the last few days and I want to give you an opportunity, in a sentence or two to say, if you had to put a priority above others, from your countries point of view, what would that be? Should we start here?
Well, because I am professionally handicapped as leading the Justice Department, I would think that the priority from my perspective would be that countries have sufficient legal tools to uncover and prosecute terrorism. There has been a lot of talk about the necessity to respect fundamental rights, that is of course true. But terrorism is a very specific type of criminal activity. Terrorists don’t mind losing life, their own and of course, dozens of lives of innocent civilians. So if we want to uncover terrorism, I think we do need to use a, not traditional, but specific methods of investigation and also of prosecution, because if we will only be using standard methods, that will not help. A colleague of mine used to say, when you have a difficult disease, aspirin won’t do it. You need something heavier that can cure the disease. So from my perspective, the specific legal tools respecting fundamental rights, but giving resources to law enforcement agencies to uncover and prosecute terrorist activities, I think that would be the primary goal. But as I said, this is something that is maybe focused on the law enforcement issue.
The reality of a politician confronted with being required to deliver solutions. Needing the architecture and the ability to meet the public expectations without undermining human rights, an important point. Our friend from … I apologise, Georgia, please.
Irakli Alasania [?]
Well if I have to sum up in few words, it would be sincerity and trust among the partners for the fight against terrorism, trust in each other and also adequate response. That should be something we should pay good attention to and think about.
Thank you. Your turn.
[...] [?] Excuse me… [...]
Moderator. Jennifer Mary Shipley
And my colleague from Panama.
Thank you. Well, from my point of view, I would suggest that in that statement from the Cumbre it should be very wise to include the cooperation among states. Most of you will remember when a member of the FBI in the United States, gave some tips or hints to some other authorities up in the State Department, up in the FBI, giving them, providing them with some information about how some people were using some planes, were taking some lessons, people from different countries. Things that were very rare. In the FBI, in the elite of the FBI, they don’t put these things together. They could not construct the puzzle and for that reason we have 9/11. If there is a real cooperation among states, that would be a success. And I have to remark here, that when the beginnings of ETA during some years, maybe more that 10 or 15, there was still not a real cooperation from France. When that cooperation began, after the transition, there was another resolve in favour of the combat against terrorism.
Moderator. Jennifer Mary Shipley
Thank you very much for your clarity. Ladies and gentlemen, this brings to an end the session. I want to thank the panellists.
Ah! In fact, I am going to just go back, because I think one of our colleagues who we may have been waiting for, our friend from the Arab League… would you like to make some comments. Here, we have been…
[...] Well we have been expecting, either I think, yourself or someone from the Arab League. If there is anything you would like…
[...] He was supposed to be here.
[...] I see… [...]
So he is not available? Would you like to make some comments from the Arab point of view? Is there a single priority, that you could express, succinctly from the Arab League’s point of view, that you would like to see included in the agenda, as a response to this conference tomorrow.
I think, as it is very well explained in the report of High Level Panel, and the chapter concerning collective security, terrorism cannot be singled out per se. There are other threats to peace and security. And all this combined together should be under international scrutiny. There should be an international conference to address this issue of terrorism and to take into consideration other threats.
And you see in this High Level Panel Report the priorities. We do not have to forget about poverty, we do not have to forget about Aids, we do not have to forget about global warming, we do not have to forget about this agenda that we have all addressed together at the level of heads of states and the [...] summit. The terrorism, yes, is very high as a priority, but it should not be the tree that hides the forest. I think an international conference specifically for terrorism, for the definition of terrorism and for all these conferences that have been held and many forums, we should come together to discuss this and to address an international convention and that takes into consideration these 12 conventions and other conventions. Thank you.
Moderator. Jennifer Mary Shipley
Thank you. It is important to think about where we move from here. And I do know that the members of the club are going to consider, in addition to the agenda itself, what is the go-forward position, what other actions need to be taken.
Ladies and gentlemen, there were a large number of insights offered to us by the panelists. Without going over those in full, I simply want to note that there appears to be enormous support for the confirmation of the High Level Panel’s recommendations, as was flagged by Kofi Annan and his presentation and it is clear that there is significant support, not only from the panellists, but others in this conference, for us to find a way to move these recommendations forward. There were very many consistent themes in the condemnation of terrorism and the articulation that there is never justification for actions that are criminal to be taken in the name of terrorism as a justification. This has been a theme, not only from this panel, but also one repeated on many occasions over the last three days.
The insights that came from each of the economies were unique, but I think indicate the complexity of this issue. And so international forums, such as this, need to think about the toolbox that is available as we share our knowledge and experience and allow throughout collaboration and cooperation that gets to be filled in, both between economies and across economies and within economies.
As we honour the people of Madrid tomorrow and consider what they would wish of us, I want to thank the panellists for their contribution as to how they see the way we can go forward. One of the things that has struck me about Madrid is that, while they were confronted 12 months ago by a catastrophic and hugely tragic event, the courage of the people of Madrid, as they stood up and insisted that their values and their way of life would not be undermined by terrorist acts has been one of the great acts of courage in the last 12 months.
And it is my hope that this will inspire people all around the world is they consider how to respond to terrorist acts wherever they occur. Because it is, as one of our panellists said, the objective of terrorists to undermine values of people, to undermine the confidence of the majority in order to achieve their objectives. And is it beholden of us all as we stand beside the people of Madrid tomorrow, to think about ways in which individual action, wherever we are, can with confidence say to the terrorist movement, of whatever cause, that their cause will never be more just, than the desire in the hearts and minds of people for freedom and ways in which to see those freedoms expressed.
Can I thank the panel for their attendance? Ladies and gentlemen, can I thank you for coming and listening to the leaders and politicians from these economies? I have no doubt that their contribution will add further to the tapestry of information and insight that is going to be the result of the club of Madrid’s deliberation over these few days.
Thank you very much.